[00:00:00] Pascal: Hi, welcome to One Degree Shifts. I am Pascal. I'm the co founder of Nektar. And today we're having part two of our conversations with Lore, who's a really good friend of me and Elaine and their Nektar guide. Um, and in part one of this mini series that we recorded yesterday, we talked to Lore about their healing journey and that healing is possible.
And, uh, we shared, uh, some of their insights and stories that They encountered during their healing journey, which is ongoing and has been ongoing for many years now.
Today we're going to be shifting gears a little bit and bridging the journey or stories to their perspectives on, uh, plant medicine facilitation.
Lore is a relational somatic therapist. Uh, they support people to heal and transform trauma in their life. Uh, they're a conscious connected breathwork facilitator, and they train under Robin Clements from Breathwave, who's also a Nectara guide, and they're a plant medicine integration guide.
And as well, and they're not currently doing that, but they also trained, uh, providers with, for gender affirming therapy. Uh, therapy care for the last 10 or so years. Um, hi, Lori, welcome back.
[00:01:22] Lore: Hey, hi, Pascal. Thank you.
[00:01:27] Pascal: Yeah, I, thanks for being here. And, uh, I always remember when Robin said, uh, during his training that, uh, uh, facilitating comes from the French word facile, which means to make things easier and, uh, As we spoke about yesterday, your healing journey, uh, started in a very difficult, challenging situation.
And we talked about how in over the last decade plus you've been opening, blossoming, healing, transforming, reflecting, uh, learning from mentors and teachers. And somewhere along that journey, you started to, um, outwardly shine. the light you were finding inside yourself and started facilitating for people holding space for over 14 years now for others.
Uh, you've been true to trendsters both professionally and personally, and I'm curious to hear today to start the conversation around what originally drew you to this path of facilitating, uh, medicine experiences and holding space. Was there a particular moment that called you to serve in that way?
[00:02:42] Lore: Yeah.
Yeah. . So, um,
[00:02:46] Lore: The very first experience that I had with a grandmother, with ayahuasca, um, was with a, was a really transformative experience for me, not only with the medicine, for my own experience, but we spoke a bit about this yesterday in terms of presence and love.
And Yeah. When I was in that circle, this really incredible, um, facilitator with so much integrity and her team of people, um, when I walked away from that, um, retreat or workshop or experience, Um, I was like, I want to do this someday. I want to be able to be in a place in myself that I can hold that kind of space, which is really impeccable.
It's not perfect, but it's like, it's pretty unparalleled in my experience. Just like, um, The amount of presence and love and care. And I would say kind of like endurance in a way, like really consistently staying present and caring for people and skilled is a big one. And, um, and I knew at that time I don't, I wasn't in that place.
Um, and, um, but I was so inspired. It's like, I want to do this. And I think that's, I think that's not uncommon for people. Yeah. But that was the first.
[00:04:19] Pascal: You felt the safe, you felt the feeling of. being well held. And I think for a lot of us, it might've been the first time we really felt that with other people.
[00:04:30] Lore: Yeah. And I think it's like a group context and it wasn't just me feeling that, like I could see and witness, um, it was actually a five day, uh, retreat with a lot of space for integration and the relational somatic therapy as group integration and as well as individual support. Um, and. It was just, um, I remember sharing with friends at the time being like, I'm super trauma informed in my work and I hold like a high, um, regard and I don't know, ethic around, trauma informed work.
As well as like compassion and care and skill. And I was like, this is like in place. This is what is happening here. For all those days, working like, working the people like the facilitator and her team of people, um, really just being there so consistently for people in all different kinds of situations with so much genuine care, love, presence, attunement.
Which is where, that kind of really is really like a, what we're going to probably be talking more about later on and like what's important in my perspective for people who are holding space for other, for others. All those things were so rich and so present and so enacted and embodied and shared on a consistent basis through like the five days that I was like, wow, like people are doing this.
Like this is happening and. I hadn't really experienced that before. And, um, it inspired me deeply.
[00:06:16] Pascal: Yeah. It sounds like, uh, it sparked a lot of hope in yourself and, uh, yeah, that experience also started shaping, uh, or maybe continued shaping your understanding of what safety in this kind of work feels like and what it actually looks like.
And like you said, an embodied practice.
[00:06:38] Lore: Yeah. And at the same time, I was like, I am not there yet. Um, so many years of, um, of being a counselor and a therapist, and that's the beauty from my experience of the medicine work, personally, I mean, especially working with the grandmother, is like, was just opening these doors for me of like, I had done a lot of healing, a lot, and I was shown, and I saw, and that there was a lot more to do for me.
I think we're always chasing being better. How can I be better? That's the programming of the Western culture in a way. But then there's also like, um, the importance of having a whole bunch of personal work that you do in order to really be able to be a good, uh, facilitator or, Um, I mean, I'm saying facilitator in terms of facilitating, um, like a plant medicine session for people or group for people.
[00:07:49] Pascal: What would you consider sort of the most, um, important lessons that you learned, after that experience of reflecting on, I'm not quite there yet, um, which is a beautiful Insight to receive, right? To have that awareness of that. What happened after that experience? Like, what was your process to, skill up or to learn new ways of being, et cetera, like what happened after that?
[00:08:17] Lore: Well, it was five or six years later that I started, um, supporting other people in that process. So, and it wasn't in a group process, but in an individual process. Um, and truthfully, in this circle, there's like a lot of, um, holding like physical holding, and there's a lot of, There's a lot of consent, and it's respectful, and it's always, like, it's always offered to people, and offered to people to, like, decline.
But for me, in my experience, like, actually being physically held when I'm, when I was going through kind of like an experience or an energy of trauma in the medicine, that was profound for me. And I already had known at that time for myself that it's something that kind of like, you Physical touch, um, was tough for me, something that I crave, but I just didn't feel comfortable, I didn't feel at ease, um, which is a whole other kind of longer story to explain why, and, but in that ceremony, in those set of days, um, the process in which I was offered physical touch and holding It was very intentional, and it was so supportive, and it was consensual.
I gave my consent, um, it was, it really, uh, supported me. And I, and when I, and when it came out of that, like, I remember going to, um, I remember I'd been working with a couple different facilitators for my own personal work, and there was, um, a woman who had been, um, doing plant medicine therapy for decades.
And I remember connecting with her and just saying like, I want to heal this in myself this deep piece of, I think it's kind of shame related and just this like imposter or maybe it's like, um, yeah, existential shame around this touch, just like simple kind of physical touch with another person. And then I'm like, I feel.
That it's really important. And to be able to offer that in a highly skilled way, a really intentional way, because it really helped me so much. You can hear the rooster crowing outside there. I don't know if roosters crow, but yeah, it's
[00:10:49] Pascal: roostering,
[00:10:51] Lore: roostering. Um, so I remember just being like, okay, I want to work on this.
Like I want to work on this specific element or impact of shame. Or whatever else it is that I'm uncomfortable with physical touch, and, um, and that's just one element, I also at the time was very, I had a lot of anger at the time was kind of angry at the world or angry at some of what I feel is injustice in the world.
And I also was very, I had a lot of protective shields. I wasn't as open or at ease in myself or in relational fields. And so I knew that was important for me to continue with patience and compassion to Attend to those places in myself, not fix them or change them. I mean, I did ultimately want to transform or change and, have more ease.
[00:11:48] Pascal: So true, that devotion to yourself, really, uh, with patients, which I think is such an underrated word, patients, the patients of spending all those years Continuously blossom. And I mean, you're still doing it and we're all doing it, but I'm really having an attention and awareness to yourself of where you're really at.
And, um, sounded like you kept learning from teachers and mentors that kept allowing you to entrain with them, to reflect with them, to learn and grow with them. And I've heard you say the word skilled a couple of times, and I'm, and there's also a thematic of the words that I've seen you, uh, Describe these teachers and mentors and the keywords that I keep hearing are like embodiment, presence, integrity, and I'm curious, skill, like, how would you describe skill?
Like what other elements of strong or ethical or integrous facilitators have you noticed in your journey so far?
[00:12:58] Lore: The thing that's coming to me in this moment is, um, trust. So when I encounter someone who ends up or is already, um, in a place of, Um, like offering me or teaching or imparting, knowledge or wisdom, right? Teacher or mentor. It's that I feel a sense of trust with them. So I, um, trust is a big one.
Trust is huge. You have to trust someone enough, and,
for me, it's like a felt sense. Um, and it's also. Knowing that someone has done a lot of their own work is really important in my perspective. It's crucial. It's, I don't think it's just my perspective. I think it's really important. I mean, I kind of want to bridge out here And I just feel really compelled to kind of speak in general terms about, um, practitioners.
And I think this does stem from me and my sense of people who I've worked with, who I've learned with or from. They kind of exude this trustworthiness. It's like the first time, um, the first person I, um, Ended up working with, um, with ayahuasca, that same circle that inspired me.
I remember, I wasn't really actually looking to, um, experience ayahuasca. I was looking for like a holistic, um, practitioner to help me with, um, a physical ailment that was manifesting at the time for me. But I remember, asking around and encountering different people. And I, and someone offered me to connect with her, this facilitator, and I was like, I remember like the first meeting with her, I just felt this overwhelming, like, beautiful, instant, like, trust.
I was like, I trust you. And for me, I don't, I had not at that time, up until that time in my life, trusted people easily. Um, And I don't know if I say I, I trust people easily now, but much more. And, um, and so how is it that she offered such an instant deep trustworthiness? Right. So it's like, well, I have come to know her and work with her.
Now she's a friend of mine. Um, and, but I know enough that she has done an exceptional amount of work on herself. And a dedication and devotion not to herself, but to, to others and to humanity and potentially the, the earth, I mean, I'm not going to be, that's my perspective.
And I think it's shared among teachers in my life is that doing your own work offers you a self awareness and offers you, um, this ability to be able to, um, You know yourself and know your edges, know your shadow, know things like, Oh, where am I activated? Is this, um, energy or emotion coming from me?
Or is this coming from the person that I'm working with? And then it's like, um, yeah, I mean, it's such a, it's such a big question. And so there's what I feel is like the skillfulness of being able to maintain like boundaries, which means like, for me, someone who, um, knows how to take care of themselves in relation to me, or is like able to be honest and truthful.
Um, and that they're gonna, yeah, that they're going to take care of themselves in relation to me and that they're going to, um, not just by words or communication verbally, but, um, Um, being able to hold a center within themselves. Um, yeah. So I, I don't know if I'm kind of trailing on it on and off here, because what's coming to me as I'm speaking is also elements of safety.
So as I'm sharing these things, I'm also thinking, well, actually, this is to me, what includes, um, offering safe space for someone safe enough. Yeah. Safe enough. I don't think you can actually be a hundred percent. Safe
[00:17:44] Pascal: ish.
[00:17:46] Lore: It's just I don't know, it's just too wobbly. Safe enough is like solid.
[00:17:52] Pascal: Okay, that's good. Thanks. I like that.
Yeah, there's actually a lot of people who, uh, and thanks for sharing that. And I think all those things are really beautiful elements of trust, which of course, Helps breed safe enough spaces for people. And, I would add things like care and compassion. And, um, I like that you said truthfulness because I think a part of that element of truthfulness is also being able to lean into the shadow, right?
And not being someone who consistently chases the positive and tries to look away from the dark, right? I think that's a part of trust that, I've had to, Reflect on myself as well in terms of my own journey in terms of, uh, being an internal optimistic and, um, I've learned through the years and I, I'm still learning that the aspect of trust is to also be able to have the hard conversations.
And actually we had hard conversations together in the last years around different things that you brought up. There was like, wow, actually, Laura is like really calling me out here and they're really being honest and truthful. And that's. Led me to trust you so much more, um, because you were able to be that truthful and that's true friendship and I, uh, I think that's a really big piece of creating safety.
Oh,
[00:19:09] Lore: for sure. For sure. And I want to agree with you that, yeah, care and compassion is so important. So important, but it's sincere and genuine care and compassion.
[00:19:23] Pascal: Um, not with a weird agenda that the shadow agenda, the person doesn't really aren't aware of it. Right. So it's like, that's sincere care.
[00:19:32] Lore: Yeah. And I think it comes back to like, I don't know. I just really think it all comes back to yourself. Like I've in my experience, like, I was sharing with you and on the conversation in the first podcast. Of, um, it has to come from within, and my first real, kind of anchor into a healing process was like over 20 years ago when I started learning and practicing meditation and compassion for me was a, like an integral part of that practice of meditation.
And so I can view my own experience of cultivating compassion in myself. And I believe it's not like a self centered thing. It's that kind of, I don't know if it's a saying or it's this colloquial belief that, you can't really love another unless you have love for yourself. You can't really have compassion for another unless you have it within.
And so looking at my own, um, decades of cultivating compassion and Seeing how, um, it really is easier and flowing and I think has more depth when I offer that to others because it's been cultivated and offered within as a practice for many years. And I think that can be said for other things, like, um, my, my opinion or experience on what makes a good practitioner is that they are, that they have done a lot of their own work, honestly, being willing to look at themselves and to know thyself, the shadows, the kind of dark places, so called, right?
[00:21:30] Pascal: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Um, earlier you mentioned, uh, SayFish is a bit wobbly, uh, which I've always appreciated your eye for details on words. I've learned a lot from that. I feel like a lot of people, and I've been picking this up since actually we've had conversations about that word a couple years ago around the word, creating safety or using the word safety, and I see that a lot in retreats, so Marketing or facilitator marketing.
And, oh, this is a safe space for you. And I always think now it was like, how do you know what's actually safe, um, for everyone that's present? Um, so safety is subjective and you've taught me that. And what's safe for you might not be safe for me. Um, and you've had some challenging experiences with.
Feeling safety in spaces, I want to share a little bit more about that and the reality of exclusion and, uh, your lived experience with that.
[00:22:35] Lore: Yeah, sure. I, but I would be happy to do that before I hop in. I want to say a couple of things about safe enough. And, um, because it's true to say you offer safe space for everyone.
I don't think that's truthful because like you say what's safe for you may not be safe for me. Um, but there are elements of offering a safe enough space that, that can be much more inclusive for everybody. Much more, and then the other thing about safe enough is that when you say safe enough, it's acknowledging that it's not one safety fits all.
Um, and it's also It's not flippant, like, Oh, it's good enough. Oh yeah, safe enough. No, it's not like that. Yeah,
[00:23:26] Pascal: like, yeah. And it's, you're right, and it's so new and it's so unique for everyone. I had this experience doing a yin yoga session. A couple of months ago at a local yoga studio.
And because of the choice of words, the facilitator was saying, I actually felt a little bit unsafe in the yin yoga session of all places.
And
[00:23:48] Pascal: it was subtle. It's not a big, I wasn't triggered or anything, but it was just like this wobbliness, like you said. And I don't think anyone else in this space really felt it because it was.
Specifically my stuff that was coming up, right? You don't
[00:24:03] Lore: know, you don't know. Maybe others do, or you don't totally know.
[00:24:09] Pascal: Yeah. So that, yeah, to go back to sort of the, um, your personal experience with that, um, being in genderqueer. Person and
[00:24:21] Lore: no which example can I share?
No. I'm just throwing a little half joke out there. Um,
I
[00:24:33] Lore: know. I think, yeah, can I share an example of not feeling safe? Well, I think, when we're using this language, I don't love the word safe. I don't love it. , I think culturally it's been thrown around and misused. I mean, especially in the last several years, um, where, At least in the West, there's this notion of, like, I've, I've got to make sure other people are safe, so there's like these cultural kind of like nuances or like maybe bigger than nuances of associations with words and meanings of words. But, I remember reading somewhere, hearing someone say that, just by virtue of being a human being, you're not actually ever safe. If you want to talk about safety, what is safety?
So for me what's actually better for what I mean, I'm working this out. I don't know for sure, but right now it feels better for me to talk about trust. And for me they're connected
Safe enough or safer spaces, um, is allowing people to the best of the ability that people can feel themselves and feel at ease, feel like they can, um, they don't have to be protective, they don't have to guard, um, they can be themselves and they can expect or, um, they can expect.
regard and, um, respect. They can expect respect. It's like a tongue twister. Um, so there's safe spaces in general, especially it's crucial to offer this for people working with plant medicine. Yeah. So important because people are in an, in altered state, where there's a high vulnerability.
Yeah. and also a higher dynamic of power between practitioner and participant. Um, and then there's the conversation, which I really, yeah, had, we had been talking about wanting to bring in, which is like trans and queer, um, people. and experiences of plant medicine and circles or community and how there is, um, at least everybody that I've spoken to, literally every single trans or queer person that I've spoken to about their experience of being in a plant medicine circle.
or community, there has been varying degrees of, um, wishing that there was more inclusion or inclusiveness. So that could be a whole other podcast. I mean, we could spend a lot of time on that, but I want to acknowledge that. And this is again, some things would be in general when we're talking about safer space.
Or safe enough for people in general working with plant medicine and there would be a bit more specific focus on people who are trans or queer in, uh, working with plant medicine in an individual or group setting.
[00:27:53] Pascal: There is that reality of the exclusion, right? And, um, I know you shared an experience you had in a circle that, you brought the subject up and the person facilitating, maybe wasn't so open to discussing it. Um, And it's not about it. And what I want to say with that is that it's not about perfection.
It's not about holding the best space ever. It's like being ethical doesn't mean you're doing it perfectly. It means you're open to receiving feedback in a way that honors the other person's lived experience, basically.
[00:28:27] Lore: Yeah. And again, this comes back to skillfulness, Pascal, because You have to have a foundation to be able to offer an experience or a holding of space where you don't have to expect that person to come to you and offer feedback.
You have to eliminate the possibility to an extent of someone coming to you and saying, Hey, can I talk to you about feeling excluded? It's not their job, it's your job to do as best you can to be welcoming and informed of the diversity of experiences in, in the room.
[00:29:07] Pascal: And what was your experience as a participant in those sessions?
Um, situations where is there a piece around self love that blossomed over time that made you speak up about these things or did you organ or naturally kind of speak up when those things would come up for you?
[00:29:27] Lore: Yeah. I mean, this kind of goes back to what I was sharing about like anger around injustice which for me, is really around, um, Where it comes from is experiencing a lot of injustice or, a lot of violence and trauma as a child and into my, um, like, early adult life.
And so, I'm sharing this as a, as an example of self awareness, like, oh, I am, haven't fully come to, full piece around the extreme violence I experienced as a child. And so I'm kind of putting it into when I see injustice in the world, I kind of jump on it or lunge on it as a way to kind of channel or funnel some of that unresolved anger or unresolved trauma of, um, violence, which I perceived as injustice as a child.
So I'm just kind of using this as an example to share a self awareness piece just about me. But also, um, as an example of self awareness as important, um, as a practitioner.
I think,
it is discernment. When do I choose to share with someone that I feel excluded because I'm a gender queer or queer person? And when do I choose to not? So I'll give an example. It's a simple example. Um, when I have felt, uh, unsafe as a genderqueer person is, um, being in a space where I am at least visibly, or I don't know, um, as long as, as far as I can tell the only genderqueer person in the space.
Um, and let me, I want to say that a lot of people have been inclusive at the same time. I feel also pretty so, just like for me, it's language for me, it's like not having a space for me to share with people at the time I was pretty, um, it was important for me for people to know that I use or prefer they, them pronouns and I say prefer because it's not a norm and, um, for people to just easily use they, them pronouns.
But I remember being in a space, um, where I wasn't, at least to my knowledge, I was the only genderqueer person. And there was no opportunity for me to share that in a space. It wasn't kind of acknowledged. Um, and then there was language. Like you said I'm, language is important to me. And at the time I was hearing this language around like, um, divine feminine and divine masculine and we've had these conversations before, Pascal, but, uh, it's like sharing like, what actually is that and what is non divine and what is divine and this kind of like binary of masculine and feminine.
And so this is an example of me feeling like that. doesn't fit for me. I'm confused about what you mean by that. There's an assumption that people might know what that is. And, um, and I'm not sure in this moment how to, I just didn't feel good inside. I didn't feel at ease. I felt tension. I felt um, I wanted to withdraw, um, wasn't sure what people were really meaning or thinking.
And then in that regard, how might they consider me if I'm, uh, what I consider like neither less male or female, but kind of both. So my experience, I think what I want to say is what it comes down to is like feeling unsafe is also different for different people. Um, but I think generally it's safe to say, no pun intended.
It's safe to say,
[00:33:27] Pascal: it's safe enough to say, it's safe
[00:33:29] Lore: enough to say that. When someone doesn't feel safe, they're not at ease to be open. They're not at ease to be receptive or to share honestly or genuinely. There's a protectiveness, there's attention. You might, others might help me fill in, what that really is.
But it's not, there's not an ease. And this is so important in medicine space. It has to be, Um, it's safe enough, it has to be like a skilled enough space for someone to feel at ease, to go deep, to dig deep, to kind of be vulnerable, to surrender, so knowing parameters for others around what helps you feel more at ease, what are some things that I could know that don't work for you.
So that's putting the work on the participant. That's where I'm saying that the skill is in the practitioner to have that covered in a good enough way. That means being informed about different areas where people might not feel comfortable, might not feel able to be themselves. And then having systems in place already that you can cover that.
And then being specific to an individual because it is subjective.
[00:34:51] Pascal: And having the curiosity and the humbleness to receive the feedback and grow from that too. Because,
Some people can get defensive or like, they're not so open to that sort of communication, right? They think they, um, yeah, and I've seen facilitators who don't receive feedback really well, but the really good ones are always open to speaking about it.
And I think that's a really good sign. And
[00:35:15] Lore: yeah,
[00:35:16] Pascal: you shared a quote by Vicki Reynolds, uh, before we chatted and is that safety is not assured by good intentions.
[00:35:24] Lore: Yeah. So, but by having good intentions does not mean that you're offering safer space for someone.
First of all, I love Vicki Reynolds and I love that you're bringing this in because I love that quote, so important. And I want to just kind of jump back for a moment and say that, um, in a plant medicine, um, facilitated space, whether that's for an individual or for a group, if someone is in an instance, it is an individual shares, um, this is what helps me feel more at ease.
This is what helps me feel safer. That person has the skill and ability and comfort and, non defensiveness or whatever else might be required to incorporate that in the moment, or throughout the time that they're working together in the moment. Let's say it's an individual session where you have like six, seven hours together, or you've met the night before, or you've done some pre planning and someone, this is covered, pretty crucial element to cover in depth.
Okay. What helps you feel more comfortable? What were your resources? How can I support you? To be brief. And then you're able to incorporate that. You're able to offer that to someone. And that is good enough. Meaning, it's good enough for someone to know that you are able to acknowledge and respond with a foundation of skill that you can bring that skill to this moment and to the participant in particular and offer it to them.
That takes skill. So yeah, so then, and then it's also skilled to be on, to go beyond being well intentioned, going back to Vicki Reynolds. Yeah. And her amazing quote.
[00:37:16] Pascal: Yeah. It's a great quote.
I, as you were sharing about the questions, I was thinking, people are more perceptive to the details and sometimes we give them credit for, um, So even by virtue of being asked a specific question before entering an experience, I've had a greater sense of trust and safety in the space just by noticing that they're asking that specific question really communicates their level of awareness and integrity in which to conduct their work.
Most likely, it's not the only sign, but it's a good sign. And so I think that those level of details that are being offered to create the trust and the safety are. Happened dozens of time before and after and during an experience that maybe we don't notice, right, the small things. And I think that's really beautiful to get really curious about those things.
[00:38:09] Lore: Yeah, I love what you're saying for sure. And it's also like short term, immediate and long term.
So it's like, another component of how to offer what I feel is safe space, safe enough, safer space. Is that you mean what you say and you say what you mean, and that's a tall order, but that's something that you have to, you have to experience that in someone.
Let's say that, I'm a client and I'm working with a practitioner. I can't know that right away. I can get a sense of it, but I, it's this longer term takes a bit more time to, to earn and develop trust. Yeah, so I'm going to feel much more, um, at ease and, um, safer if you are going to really, truly stay with the practice of when you say something, you mean it.
And that I can trust that it's totally important. At least it's important for me. And I think in general,
[00:39:17] Pascal: yeah, it's, I think you, you explained that really well. Like the foundation, the bedrock of safe enough is really trust and integrity. And, um, one of our good friends, Richard, uh, talked about integrity before and he said, it's kind of like a chair, one of the legs can be broken, but it can always be repaired.
Yeah.
Um, so again,
[00:39:41] Pascal: it's not this idea of like being a perfect. Facilitator all the time, um, but being willing to engage in dialogue and improving and listening and attuning to other people and continuously improving basically, uh, is a big part of building trust and over time, and I think the element of time is such a big one as well in terms of really having done your work as you highlighted before, and having interface with more people basically understood the human and Spectrum.
Yeah. Basically of, yeah, of all the types of people who engage in this work, which is all over the place, really.
[00:40:17] Lore: Yeah, for sure. And I want to come back to like, what makes a good practitioner.
And I think that, um, I think that's like having a really kind of exceptionally high sensitivity of being able to be attuned to someone else, attunement.
Yeah. And I think that it's attunement on a lot of levels. It's, I think it's. really important, and this really comes from my practice and, um, studies on relational somatic therapy. And it's like, understanding the nervous system in terms of trauma and healing trauma. And if I'm able to, or if a practitioner is able to be pretty highly attuned to the nervous system of another person, and, the nonverbal, Kind of sensory or visible cues of how to notice when someone's in a more activated state or when you know, there are elements that you might be able to perceive and see or sense and then there's that important piece of like, oh, is this me or is this not me?
Or how am I responding when someone else is beginning to be activated, but there's like a practice of being able to tune into that on a very high sensitive level, especially, I think that's really important, um, in plant medicine work because it's not always available to say, to check in with someone.
Not in the same way that it might be in like a, um, a counseling session or a coaching session or a therapy session. Um, because someone's, it's not always available to have a verbal communication. So these fine tuned skills, um, of being able to attune to another, but also equally attune to yourself.
When I notice that I'm being activated by something, how do I notice that? And then how do I come back? What are my practices to come back to a ground, to come back to my body? Because I'm not exactly, no one's perfect. It's just what are our ways of being able to respond to moments, and then it's honesty.
Honesty with yourself, if I use that example again, it's like if I'm in a session with someone and I'm noticing myself, like, feeling anger or feeling like I'm not sure what to do in this moment. It's like, Oh, okay. So that's happening. How do I accept that's happening? Have compassion for what it is and then come back to the task at hand, which is to be grounded and embodied and attuned to another.
So it's like that same notion of repair with the four legs and the three legs and Of the, of your friend with integrity, as an example, it's the same thing, like, how do we come back and repair the moment of misattunement, that's crucial. And, there's one more thing I was going to, wanting to say, um, but, well, I lost it, so.
[00:43:35] Pascal: Yeah, the, yeah, thanks for sharing that. And, um, I'd like to talk, and you just touched on just briefly about, how am I responding as a facilitator? Like, what is my response to this situation? How do I come back to my center? To me I've always had such a huge amount of respect for facilitators, uh, because of the sacredness of the moment and the state of the person you're working with and the medicine and all of the spiritual, emotional, physical energies that swirl around that experience and the level of depth and presence and, uh, skills that you need to have to be able to hold all of that in a good way and it's such a sensitive moment and you said earlier you know thyself how do you relate to that within your own personal experience of Knowing yourself deeper and relating it to your external work with clients.
Like, tell me more about that, because I think that's a fascinating element of exploration and depth within your own self. In the name of service, really, which is really beautiful, and your own healing at the same time.
[00:45:01] Lore: Yeah, well, that's the thing.
And when you're Posing that question to me and my first kind of response was Knowing myself in my life in general just in my relationships in my you know Just generally in my life knowing myself and then there's knowing myself in Relational fields.
How do my how do I know myself in relation to others? And then specifically, there's how do I know myself in relation, sorry, how do I know myself in my work? What are my, how do I know, oh, where are my, um, vulnerable places? Where are my places where I know that I can get activated or know that I can shut down or know that I can, have a propensity for this or that, like, um.
And I want to give an example, like, when I, Um, when I was first learning relational somatic therapy I was like, Oh, I have this actual overwhelming feeling sometimes of like, I, in this moment, I just, I think sometimes I have a freeze of like, I don't know what to do. And then my response to that state is really what would also debilitate me.
I mean, this is all like, if you could freeze frame a moment and look at it and, say a whole bunch of things about it, but then like the next split second is happening. So it's, yeah, time is also a really interesting thing, but what would happen for me would be, I would be like, Oh, I'm not sure what to do right now.
And then I would start to go into a bit of a shame response. Like, I'm not good enough. Oh no, I don't know what to do. I shouldn't be doing this. And it just took me some time to be like, Oh, here's this thing that shows up. And it can be easier to respond to of like, I'm not sure what to do in this moment.
Like, huh, you're human, huh? You don't know what to do in this exact moment. Well, that's okay. Instead of responding with this like shame or this, self judgment or this wishing things were different, it should be different as spiral was taking me further away from being in my body and in attunement with someone or coming back.
So, um, so it's how I am with myself. It's self awareness in my work is so important because that's where you get to refine your skills, right? If you don't, you can't refine your skills if you don't really know yourself. And, um, and so then it's like. So I just wanted to make that distinction, self awareness has a lot of components.
Surprise, surprise.
[00:47:52] Pascal: Yeah. The onion keeps peeling and there's no end to it.
[00:47:56] Lore: Well, there is an end I think, there is. I think.
[00:48:04] Pascal: We'll all find out someday. And yeah this piece around self awareness is so important. Of course we talked about this earlier, but, having teachers and mentors and peers and, friends even that can help you reflect or point something out or, Um, not due in the right direction or even surface things that are pretty ugly to look at for you to keep peeling the onion and developing that self awareness, right.
And I, I think that's something that I'm not a facilitator, but I think there's somewhere along the way that I really started humbling myself to my shadows almost, and instead of trying to like fight them, I was more like, Oh, they're actually there. And I can look at them and like Duncan really would say, turn and embrace towards them rather than looking away and.
Running away from them. And I think that's a big part of being a good space holder is being aware of the darkness inside of us. And
[00:49:01] Lore: yeah,
[00:49:02] Pascal: the shadows that do exist in everyone
[00:49:04] Lore: for sure. And it's like reminding me of one of my, one of the beautiful people in my life who influenced and taught me a lot. Um, she would say, see if you can befriend, and, um, I remember at first, like this is like in a, um, meditation.
It's actually a mindfulness based trauma counseling group that I was a client in, I was a participant in. And, um, I remember the offering of sharing my experience of, approaching trauma with mindfulness practice and just this offering of like, see if you can befriend. And I remember just being like, no, I can't befriend it.
And then it
[00:49:47] Lore: was just like this resistance, resistance is huge too. It's another massive piece to talk about in terms of being a good practitioner resistance. Um, it was framed a bit differently. She came back and said, well, see if like, does it work maybe if you can be befriended by this energy?
So instead of me being in the act of befriending at the time, it was easier to like receive an offering of someone wanting to befriend with me and the someone is an energy of like, I don't know, shame or something. Shame keeps coming up in this conversation. So, but all that to say that, um, I like the idea of instead of fighting or instead of turning to war, and I love the notion of befriending.
Heard of you, that might not be easy to see or know. See if you can intend a quality of befriending. Yeah.
[00:50:46] Pascal: I'll be practicing that one. Thank you.
Yeah.
[00:50:51] Pascal: I'll make more friends.
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:50:55] Pascal: Um, yeah, it's lovely. Thank you for sharing that.
I'd like to touch on this, uh, A word of resistance, which it seemed like it was, uh, had energy for you.
Did you want to talk a little bit more about resistance, uh, for facilitators and space holders? Yeah. Well,
[00:51:13] Lore: I laugh because resistance is a massive teacher in my life. Like I, I am familiar with resistance on an internal level. So I laugh. I am
[00:51:25] Pascal: too. I'm an, I'm a professional resister. So,
[00:51:29] Lore: so I laugh, it's funny because.
But I want to be specific about resistance is important in, as a practitioner to be familiar with and how are you working with it with other people, especially in altered states of consciousness is that there is, there can be, um, beautiful opportunity to have that resistance come to the surface.
to be able to work with it in, in, in a way. And I think in general, there's resistance to surrender or there's resistance to, which I think is related to fear about the experience in the first place, which is healthy. There's nothing wrong with it. Um, so I'm more thinking about resistance in terms of meeting it in the space, meeting it in the, facilitated space.
And, then there is just by virtue of touching on this, then there is resistance internally as a practitioner. Oh, when is resistance showing up for me with another, Oh, I'm like, I'm resistant to, I don't know, whatever this person is bringing up or. Um, so there's, I mean, there's a man you could talk, I, uh, yeah, there's lots.
So I like that you say, let's just touch on it. And this is good to consider, these are things that, we're not providing answers here. They're just, it's kind of food for thought and inquiry. Good questions are really helpful learners, helpful ways we can learn or offering kind of points for greater contemplation.
[00:53:15] Pascal: No one has figured all of this out.
[00:53:18] Lore: Spoiler alert. In that way.
[00:53:20] Pascal: We're building this spaceship as we're flying and it keeps changing all the time.
[00:53:24] Lore: But I'd
[00:53:25] Pascal: love for you to share an example of resistance and how it showed up in your
facilitation.
[00:53:30] Pascal: Uh, and how you, you learn from it or not, maybe it's something that's present for you these days.
Oh,
[00:53:37] Lore: yeah. There's one comes to mind massive where I was doing an individual session with someone and, um, before going in, um, we had worked a lot together for several sessions on, um, their fear. And. She had fear of, um, being in an emergency situation where she had a health, um, crisis, um, I think it was a year or two prior to the session, and she was just, she had, as a child or as a teenager, she had witnessed someone, um, have a really bad, um, acid trip, who took LSD and freaked out and it was really awful.
And so there's this association between working with the medicine and having some fear around something really explosive or bad happening. And so, um, Um, and she had a personal experience of having, someone had to, she had, physically felt really unwell and dizzy and she, um, someone called an ambulance and she was really unwell and she ended up, getting better.
It's this really severe dehydration. But I remember being in a session with her, so we had done really a lot of really good work and she, she had the option of saying no. She didn't have to go through with this, even though we had done a lot of planning around doing the medicine day together. Um, yeah.
Yeah. And, um, and I, yeah, I remember in the moment, um, a couple hours in, um, where she, so just to be clear, she had wanted to go through with it and we had developed some strategies and some notifications with each other and, um, the other practitioner who was there as well. And, um, so in this moment, she started to go into a fear response and she had this feeling of something's really wrong.
She had a bit of an urgency and a fear coming up. And she said, I know, like, it's maybe not good to go to the hospital, but I feel like I think I need to, and it was just quite an urgent situation. And then there was this fear that I was judging her and that, that it wasn't the first option because.
She's gone through what might have been if she feels afraid or if she's not comfortable with it. She feels like it's too much. And I and I assured her that this is the kind of protocol, but if we can work through it first together, that would be important first before, is there a local, I think people feel more safe if there's an option, if they really are unwell, that they can go to emergency medical care.
And that is an option. But as a practitioner, it's like, um, anyway, this is a really, again, this is a much bigger issue that we could really would be useful to speak more about, to cut, to bring it back to resistance. I remember in the moment having this flash of like, no, I don't want to take you to medical care.
Like, no, and this is quick, right? This is fast. Like my first response is like, In a sense, it's like resistant to her request, but in another sense, it's a skillfulness of like, let's slow this down. Let's connect and let me attune with you. Let's see what's really needed, and what was really needed was she just needed to be squeezed and held again, this touch coming back into our conversation where, um, I said, is it okay to have this urge to just want to kind of just, and we had talked and negotiated around touch and being how it was safe for her, it was good for her.
And so I did. And again, like, so in that moment, it's like acknowledging it. Okay. Yeah. This is like, but I'm not letting it be the, it's not steering my next action. Right. Right. So resistance is showing up. And I can allow it and I can see it, but then I can come back to like what's needed here.
And in that moment, I felt guided, with a benevolent power outside of myself. Again, you can touch on like, I don't know, spirituality or spiritual elements to this practice. Um, but then I also knew that there was something whether we were, whatever was going to happen, I had this attunement that there was.
Like, um, a deactivation that was needed in her system and in her heart, in her inner sense, in her mind. And that started a process of being able to, um, yeah calm and deactivate a bit. Then things started to shift. And the need to meet the moment with, uh, with, uh, medical emergency care wasn't needed anymore.
So I'm making this story very short, which is kind of not the best thing to do. It's an emergency situation, but, um, that's what came to mind and resistance. Yeah, I was resistant. I, and I noticed myself having resistance again, what is resistance, but through the conversation, because I have personal experience with like, violence in the medical system and violence in the psychiatric system.
So my openness and comfort in Western medical systems is not high, so then there's that piece. And I had to be aware of that piece coming in and still being able to navigate and offer, Um, what was needed. So, as a big super, answer your question.
[00:59:16] Pascal: Well, it's very, uh, it's a very strong moment because you're navigating your own internal world.
You're navigating the situation. You're navigating, sort of, your awareness of her inner landscape. And then you're also navigating. Which you just spoke about a little bit of spiritual energies around the space, right? The unseen, the unheard. But
[00:59:38] Lore: Pascal, what I really want to say is important is that I have spent like 18 years, um, attending to what I call the wounding of my experience of violence with the system.
So I have, that's again, just an example. And, I am, I'm not. I am not in any way like an expert or perfect or in any way, but I'm just giving an example of like a dedicated amount of time to be self aware and to like not have things hiding in the corners around me having resistance to someone going to emergency medical care and then my own stuff.
So I had enough wherewithal, I had enough time that I'd spent, have spent. healing pieces of that. And yeah, a lot. And so I was able to say, Oh, this is coming up and I acknowledge it. And it's not going to be the driving force of this moment. No, but I'd had enough practice and attention to healing pieces of my experience to be able to hold that space and attune with her and see what's needed for her.
I hope, yeah.
[01:00:54] Pascal: Right. And that's that, that would be easy. I would imagine to brush off. Right. Um, and like you said, kind of use the broom and brush it out of sight. Right. So that's, those are the kind of like micro moments in the, a macro, a big, important moment that, um, maybe a younger, less experienced facilitator yourself, like 15 years ago, might have not been paying attention to.
No
[01:01:22] Lore: way.
[01:01:24] Pascal: That's brings it to the sort of dedication to deep service, to sacred service and this path, which is really to just really have a lot of attunement and awareness and listening to those things so that you can keep illuminating all the parts of yourself so you can serve in a better way in it, and we talked about this in the first episode, that was a bit more focused on your own personal healing, but, uh, this work is not for everyone.
On the professional side, either, the medicines are not for everyone and facilitation is not for everyone. And, um, the call to being in service to this work is huge. It's such a sacred thing to offer yourself to this work. Um, and we talked about it a lot today about doing your own work and the dedication and the patience and things like that.
So it takes a lot to do this. It's not for everyone.
Yeah
[01:02:27] Pascal: Despite what the training programs are trying to tell people for the most part, which is come on over, do a two week training, you'll be facilitating in no time, but you know what? It takes decades to do this in a really good way.
[01:02:39] Lore: Absolutely. And I mean, I've even touched on like, what's so, so imperative or crucial or highly important is your own experience with the medicines that you're working with and others with, your personal experience of being a client. Being a participant, having someone hold space and support you in the process of working with Planned Medicine.
But then also, like, your experience, your practice of, um, being able to facilitate. You have to practice, you have to practice knowing, um, knowing what is important. I think I'm getting tired too, sorry. I, um, I, which is fine, um, yeah, it does, it's not a quick thing. And I think this is another element is like, it just takes time.
It takes time to build skills. It takes time to, um, to, have enough experience with the medicine for yourself to know some of the parameters that this offers people in your own self and then integrate that experience.
And then it takes time to offer it for other people and to learn in that way by doing, and this is where I want to say too, what I think is so important is really good, um, like peer space, like really good, in, as a therapist, we talk about like supervision, having a place to bring things.
Oh, this is what shows up for me when I'm offering. Uh, plant medicine, um, um, journey for someone, I had someone to bring my experience of resistance and this like, this kind of crisis or emergency, someone really considering they wanted to go to a hospital or a medical care, medical emergency.
And so I had, I had to, well not I had to, I wanted to bring it to people I know who are really skilled facilitators and say, Hey, like I want to debrief this. I want to do some inquiry around this. I'd love perspective around this. I want a place to integrate this experience for myself as a practitioner.
And so that's crucial too, is being able to be really willing to be vulnerable, to reveal the places where you might've made a mistake or where you might've not. been happy with your work, with how you approached a situation or happy with it, but it was like a super close call. You need to debrief it or whatever, that's really important too.
[01:05:26] Pascal: Yeah, I think you've said it to us before, it's like a place to share your fuck ups.
[01:05:29] Lore: Yeah. Uh,
[01:05:30] Pascal: I think it was Dr. Crisco who said this to me once. It was like, that's true, that's exactly it. Yeah. Cause we, we all make mistakes and, um, it's really good to have people to kind of debrief with.
Um, You're currently in Peru staying with a Shipibo family and, um, you've been learning from them and you've been, would it be fair to say it's sort of an apprenticeship in a way for you? It's more about your own personal healing, but it's not an apprenticeship.
[01:06:02] Lore: No, it's not. It's an apprenticeship of life.
It's not an apprenticeship of anything else. Apprenticeship of life. Yeah. Yeah,
[01:06:08] Pascal: right.
[01:06:09] Lore: Yeah. Yeah. No. When people see your apprenticeship, you're staying with the Shipibo family, they may think that I'm apprenticing as like a practitioner, as like A curandero or a curandera, which again is a gendered thing, but no.
However, I'm learning a lot. I'm learning a lot. And I don't know if it's safe to say that they are my teachers. Maybe it's a mutual thing. Maybe they are my teachers and I am their teachers too.
[01:06:37] Pascal: Yes.
And you're hosting a retreat with them coming up soon. And I'd love for you to share it with people because it's, it sounds like such an amazing opportunity for people to continue their healing journey, but also to, uh, witness maybe a new way of facilitation or a new way of holding the medicine, a different way of holding the medicine, which is enriching for sure.
Traditional
[01:06:57] Lore: way. Yeah. Thanks, Pascal. Yeah. Great. So this is a Shipibo cultural immersion retreat. So it's experiencing ancestral, traditional ancestral Shipibo medicine, which is a whole thing, it's not just ayahuasca. Um, so it's kind of having an experience of working with Shipibo doctor.
This is the beautiful, being who I am working with doing my own healing. Um, and she is an Onaya, which is, um, Shipibo word term for one who knows. It's also translated as one who knows how to cure with the plants, or heal with the plants. So this retreat is unique in that you get a chance to work with her.
She offers three ayahuasca ceremonies, and, um, I want to say a bunch about it, but I'm trying to keep it brief. So, um, traditionally, Shipibo tradition is that when you drink ayahuasca in a ceremony, it's only traditionally that the curandera drinks the medicine to doctor, to see, and to Um, work with you, what plants are needed, and to be able to see actually what's happening with the people in the ceremony, seeking healing.
So that's what's offered here. First ceremony, she's the only one that drinks the medicine. And then the second and third ayahuasca ceremony, you have the option of drinking the medicine if you want. So I would imagine most people would want to, but it's also open for those that don't, that want to experience a powerful ceremony without drinking.
And it is very powerful. And. So there's, um, two other things that make it kind of unique, in that you're immersing into Shipibo culture by staying on the homestead of a Shipibo curandera, um, and her family. And they've been receiving foreigners seeking healing for years, and that's set up in that way.
And then the other thing that's unique is that there are, it's an opportunity for people who actually want to learn more about the culture. medicine practice. So there are informative workshops and they're led by Anaya Rogelia. Um, and also, uh, her son is, uh, assisting her, Maestro Mike. And, um, these workshops are for you to get a taste of like, what are some of these healing modalities in the history?
So what is ancestral medicine? What is traditional ancestral Shipibo medicine? What is it? So, a talk on that, and they're mostly led by, uh, Naya Rogelia. Um, what is ceremonial tobacco, which is mapacho and shipibo hape. Um, traditional shipibo healing massage. What is it? And you get an opportunity to experience it.
Um, and. which is Shipibo textile art, which is pretty unique and beautiful and medicine involved. And, um, so then there's another opportunity to visit, um, the office of the association, which is, it's called Asol Nash, and it's an association of Onaya healers, Shipibo Kilibo Onaya healers. And so it's really the retreat, sorry, I'm going to add one more thing throughout the retreat, the 10 days, um, here in Peru, um, you have the ability to receive a personalized plant remedy, which will be supporting your own individual healing process in the 10 days.
And that is. Harvested and prepared and offered to you and followed up with you with Onaya Rogelia. And then there's plant baths and plants on us throughout the retreat as well. So it's like, for people who are wanting more than an ayahuasca experience who might want to know that this, that their healing experience, a deep, powerful healing experience, is also simultaneously supporting the curandera.
And this practice because there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of ayahuasca tourism and there's a lot of people coming to experience ayahuasca in a setting that isn't, um, respectful or supportive of the curanderos and this practice, the sexual medicine practice. So this is a unique opportunity for that.
And there's integration circles that I have the joy of being able to offer throughout the retreat. And, um, yeah. So there's five participants. It's small, intimate. And it's going to be awesome.
[01:11:53] Pascal: Yeah, it sounds amazing. Um, and, the price is really good for the number of days and the experience itself and all the ceremonies and things.
Yeah,
[01:12:04] Lore: and if I could say one thing,
[01:12:06] Pascal: if
[01:12:07] Lore: I could just say one thing about the price is that, Um, there's a value of, um, that, um, Anaya Rogelia holds that, that she wants this to be accessible for people. And it's not, money is not a priority in her work. So yeah, it's necessary, right? It's needed to cover costs and to actually have, like, offer fair pay for the incredible brilliant work that she is able to offer people.
Um, but it's, she wants it to be accessible and doesn't want it to be central. So it's super affordable in terms of what's available out there. Yeah.
[01:12:46] Pascal: And you get to, uh, spend time with lore, which is a huge thing in my opinion. And, uh, I think it's such a, it's such a blessing that people can receive all of this really authentic work that's done for the right reasons.
And it's such an antidote to the ayahuasca tourism that's happening now. And, uh, um, I just value your, integrity so much that, anything you suggest as a place that could be helpful for some folks, I would totally jump on board with it because you just really have a very keen eye on the nuances of safety and integrity in this work.
So I highly welcome people to check out the information. I'll put it in the show notes, have a look. I'm pretty sure it's going to sell out. That's a very unique opportunity. So, um, yeah,
[01:13:36] Lore: thank you. so
[01:13:37] Pascal: much for Spending the time with me today and a very early morning, um,
[01:13:43] Lore: and,
[01:13:44] Pascal: uh, doing this two parter with me was a real joy.
And I hope people got a, an inspiration, a reflection, uh, like Laura said, a lot of questions and little touches here and there on different things, but hopefully it inspired someone and, uh, will bring more questions and conversation around this work.
[01:14:00] Lore: Yeah. I really hope so as well, that it, yeah, it's food for thought.
It's helpful. It's, I don't know. Useful or at least, um, I don't know, enjoyable to listen in on conversations. It's always great to have conversations with you and talk with you, Pascal. Thanks for inviting me to speak and share. It's been really great.
[01:14:23] Pascal: Yeah. Have a beautiful day. And, uh, I really enjoyed it as well.
So much love from, uh, Bali.
[01:14:30] Lore: Yeah. Thanks. Much love from Peru.
[01:14:34] Pascal: Okay. Bye.
