Stewarding a Retreat with Integrity

These are automaticlaly generated and may include spelling mistakes.

[00:00:00] Pascal: Hi, welcome to one degree shifts. I'm your host, Pascal. I'm the co founder of Nectar and I'm joined by Melissa Stengel. I hope I'm saying your last name. I've actually never said your last name out loud. This is the first time so welcome, Melissa.

[00:00:14] Melissa: That's right. Yeah. Thank you so much, Pascal, for having me.

Nice to be here.

[00:00:19] Pascal: Thanks for being here as well. I was, I was very Uh, commenting on your tapestry before, uh, we jumped on, like, what's the story behind the tapestry? If people are watching, listening in audio, you can't see it, but it's a beautiful, uh, heart tapestry kind of looks Shipibo ish.

[00:00:36] Melissa: It is. Yeah. It's been, uh, it's been with me through many, many seasons of, of my medicine journey, um, since the days in the Amazon all the way to here.

It was given to me by, um, one of my maestros, uh, some years ago. So. Yeah, I definitely, I love it for podcasts too, because it feels like it protects the space a bit.

[00:00:55] Pascal: Nice. That's nice to have that kind of energy with you. Um, so for those who don't know, Melissa is the co founder of Saltara. Uh, they're a beautiful retreat space, uh, previously in Peru and now in Costa Rica, correct?

[00:01:08] Melissa: We started in Costa Rica, then we also opened a location in Peru, and now we're back to just Costa Rica.

[00:01:15] Pascal: Right, and so Shipibo led a retreat, you work with maestras, with Grandmother Ayahuasca. And, uh, you've been around for quite a while, and I'd be curious, I've actually seen the story a bit on your website, but coming from you, like, what's the origin story behind Salterra, and why did you decide to open a retreat?

Because we all know how much work it is to run a retreat.

[00:01:38] Melissa: I'm very glad I had no idea how much work it would be. Um, and, uh, it's been the work of a lifetime and I'm so grateful. Um, yeah, most of our team actually came from working at various locations in, in the Peruvian Amazon, working with Shipibo healers, which for those who don't know is an indigenous, uh, Uh, people and culture that works with Ayahuasca specifically in a very lineage based, um, they're considered one of the oldest carriers of this medicine work, but they're one of over 70 different indigenous, um, cultures that work with Ayahuasca.

Um, so most of our team members, um, myself included, as well as our other co-founder, um, Daniel. Came from working in different centers in the Peruvian Amazon, uh, specifically with Shipibo maestros. I actually have like a totally different background in, um, I have a master's degree in biomedical engineering and I did cancer research for many years in a lab.

And I was very much in this circle. It was very much like the plants recruited me and were like, just kidding. Your life is actually going in a completely different direction. Um, but still in the healing space, which has been really beautiful. And, uh, so, you know, it was a, it was a very, I don't know how much you want me to go into it, but it was a very synchronistic, uh, journey of me even connecting to the medicine, um, at all.

And then that led me down to, to the Amazon. Would you like me to, to share the story or, um, just kind of,

[00:03:07] Pascal: Yeah.

[00:03:09] Melissa: So, uh, back, this was back in like 2013 and, um, you know, ayahuasca was still, it was starting to kind of become a part of the cultural narrative and zeitgeist a little bit, but, um, definitely still on the fringes.

And I was at a bit of a. turning point in my own life. I was about to take a very corporate job. I was about to kind of finish my university master's and also my time working in the, in the labs and cancer research. Um, and I started to feel like I just wanted to like make more of an impact more quickly and At that point, there was, uh, a bunch of university bills that I had to pay.

So I ended up taking a job with, with a corporation and kind of like the corporate America sort of office. It was an industrial supply company and they had a management training program. So I was like, okay, I'll do this. Like, let me get some good experience with managing and, um, business. And, you know, I know it's not going to be like my dream job, life passion, but, um, You know, let me go ahead and take it.

And so before that job started, I was really looking to orient myself to kind of the next few years that I knew wasn't going to be like my life's passion. And I wanted to do something that was going to help me through that or help me give me some perspective and also, also step out of my comfort zone.

And it was actually Reddit, uh, that, that changed my life because I just found myself on a sub forum about plant medicine and ayahuasca. And I just happened to come across a post that was from Dan, who at the time, you know, I didn't know at all. And, uh, he basically made a post that was like, I take people into the Peruvian Amazon to do ayahuasca with.

Uh, Shapibo healers asked me anything and I was like, Hey, I have a lot of questions. Um, and I just, I started asking questions and he answered them and I got a really just good vibe from him. And, um, he was advertising for this June solstice journey, which was like the perfect, very synchronistic kind of timing for me to be able to, to go and do it.

And so. You know, that was really, I think, looking back the first time that I did something from a place of almost intuition and just getting this good feeling about it rather than what I thought I should do, like almost every decision in my life up until then was, was from that framework of this is the next path in life and how to achieve the dream, et cetera.

And, um, and my partner at the time was very skeptical. He was like, I'm sorry. You're going to go do drugs in the jungle with some guy you met on Reddit. Like, are you crazy? I was like, I don't know. I just, I have a good feeling about it. Like, and he was like, Oh, great. You know, that's all. He was an engineer too.

So, um, and. I was like, all right, listen, like I'm going to do it. Um, if you're so nervous, come with me, let's do it together. And so we did. And that trip was, it didn't, it didn't blow me open or give me sort of this like reality altering experience that, um, you know, some people do have with the medicine. It really planted a seed for me.

Um, and for my partner at the time who, um, was struggling with depression and, you know, it really kind of helped him to, to dig farther into that and into the roots of that. Um, so for me, it was, it was very much about, yeah, planting the seed. And so I told Dan, like, I love what you're doing. I have to go take this corporate job, but like, let's keep in touch.

And so then a year later, he had actually built, this was in 2014. He had built a center down in the Peruvian Amazon and along the Ucayali river. And then a year after that, I was two years into this corporate job and I was really starting to feel, um, just the, the. The fact that it wasn't for me and, uh, the culture and the sort of very capitalistic mindset and things like that.

And so, um, I was actually in that time really looking for something different and I was actually praying to the universe. I was like, I need a change. I need to get out of Philadelphia. You know, I've been here for seven years. Um, and I was maybe going to go out West. And, uh, and then, you know, I just, I put it out there and I started like looking at other jobs.

And then literally like within a month, I get an email from Dan saying that they're looking for an operations manager. Um, and I was, it was the fastest cover letter I'd ever written in my life. You know, obviously I would have to learn Spanish and obviously I would have to like move to the Amazon, but, um, you know, give me a couple of months and I will, I will absolutely, you know, step up into this.

And so he took a chance on me. I took a chance on him. And so in 2015, I went down and really learned from the maestros. And got to really deepen my understanding of plant medicine work, of dieta, of their culture, and the way that they hold space for that, and also how to manage operations of an ayahuasca retreat center.

And I was the one that was taking people back and forth, making sure the retreat ran well, taking people actually to Cusco and the Sacred Valley and other locations in Peru, um, answering the questions and, you know, helping people to actually make the decision. So it was a really beautiful time. Um, and a couple of years into that, uh, Dan actually sold part of that business to a new owner.

Um, and I felt that at that point, things were starting to shift for me and I actually needed to go integrate and I needed to like get out of the retreat bubble and, uh, and actually like take some time to really let this, let this all settle. And so I went home in 2017 and, um, I ended up. Realizing how lacking in support, uh, we, like, we didn't have enough support for people after they returned home.

I mean, I was, I was lost and I, you know, really, really struggled for a year. Um, I went and lived with my mom in California for a bit and, you know, I would just, I felt very isolated. I felt like I didn't have community. I felt like I didn't have the tools to really make sense of what. You know, the last two years had just been and, uh, and, and that the fact that like, we had a Facebook group and, you know, telling people the hard work starts when you get home, like that just wasn't enough.

And so I ended up kind of closing things out with that. With that location and then kept in contact with Dan and I was like, Dan, like, we haven't been doing right by our community. Like we have not been offering the appropriate support after the retreat. And at that point he was looking at going into Costa Rica.

That's where he started his ecotourism career. Really loved the country. And he was like, okay, would you like to start something new and maybe take what we've collectively learned together and, you know, evolve it into something different in Costa Rica. And so, um, you know, the integration of that was actually Sultara with a focus on integration, and, uh, we really worked with clinical psychologists.

We worked with Dr. Bia Labate from, who's the executive director of the Chacruna Institute, um, who's just amazing and connected us with clinical psychologists. Um, Dennis McKenna and Gabor Mate came on board a little bit after as well. And, uh, we were able to kind of really create this, this holistic program that's evolved a lot over the years, especially recently with you, Pascal and Nektara, um, to really just help people be that bridge.

Right. And so, um, that's kind of the pillars is, you know, Only working with ayahuasca, only working with Shipibo healers, really allowing people to go in depth with that relationship with, with the medicine and the tradition. And then also, you know, trying to balance it and help people reintegrate, um, they're, you know, usually westernized nervous systems, um, with psych, psychotherapists, holistic practitioners, and now all of the support that Nectar offers as well.

[00:11:02] Pascal: Yeah, thanks for sharing. So you went from industrial supplies to spiritual supplies, and you went from the corporate world to the jungle world. So that was a really big shift for you and what a courageous one to do as well, right? Like, you know, salute your courage and, you know, hearing the call from a guy on Reddit, um, to sort of, um, you know, shift your life completely from that.

And I imagine, and you mentioned that the sandpaper of capitalism and the sandpaper in your soul of going through the grind and trying to get you the ladder. That must have been, uh, and that's really tough, right? But then you went to this completely different world within a couple of months only.

And, um, how was that for you as a person to kind of, Go from this system to this completely other system and how has it been for you like as a person to grow this business? And really decolonizing yourself, you know at the same time as a as a person in terms of your relationship to business and healing Which is a really interesting Contrasts of world which doesn't always play well together, but is always A beautiful opportunity to explore that and do something that's integrated and can nourish the system.

[00:12:16] Melissa: Yeah, that's a great question. And it's been such a deep learning process that's still evolving and unfolding and continuing in so many different ways.

Um, because, you know, we do, I recognize that we are still operating within a capitalistic world and framework. Um, and so, you know, there are some, some challenges and some considerations and especially in this space, right? It's like how to create a. Regenerative business. Like not just for me, this is the goal.

It's not just sustainable, but it's actually like regenerative. So with what comes in, it's like, we're able to really support the people who have dedicated their lives to training, to work with this medicine between our healers and our facilitators, um, the communities, the local staff, the, the land that we're on, the Shippibo healers, families too, and the projects that they want to pursue.

Um, the Amazon, like being able to contribute towards reciprocity projects, in addition to really supporting our team and our guests and, and really creating, you know, a, a holistic support system that isn't just like what capitalism would want, which is just like very transactional and very like, you know, I've, I've, I've witnessed, you know, spaces where.

It's like a kind of a factory or like, you know, people come in and then they leave and then they come in and they leave and it's like how to continue to really build these like relational approaches to healing and community because ultimately that is what the medicine is teaching us and you know, that we are part of healing.

Many different layers of ecosystems within, you know, our own local community in Playa Blanca, within Costa Rica in general, within the plant medicine and psychedelic movements, you know, within the sort of global community that is all of our guests that come through. And so, um, it's been challenging in some ways because actually it's like, you know, it actually takes so much.

Many financial resources to run a retreat at the standard that we really wanted to, and, um, you know, from like the therapists and medical advisors, um, to, you know, even just operating in Costa Rica, which is four times more expensive than Peru. Um, and so it has been a challenge and, you know, trying to kind of.

Find ways where we can, we can ensure that like everyone is really benefiting from this, that like, how can we create these win, win, win scenarios, which I think that capitalism doesn't always cater to, or, you know, corporate America, quote, unquote, um, that's not really the focus as much. And so it was really kind of toxic for me where it was like this obsession with.

With hierarchy and, um, these sort of organizational structures that felt very constraining. And the way that I managed people in my previous job was, um, my, my position as a manager is to ensure that you have everything you need to do your job in the best way possible. Like it's a really, it's a, a place of like service leadership, um, where it's my job to support you.

And, and in that, actually, I did learn quite a bit in that job because the way that they had it set up was, um, we would have people that were in the warehouse or, you know, on the, on the call, on the phone calls with people and they were, you know, had been there for 25, 30 years. Like, this was like, they clock in, they do their eight hours, they clock out and it was, they, they did pay very well.

So it was, um. Just people stayed for a really long time. And, and then for the management level, they would have people come in straight out of college and in the, in this like management development program. So I was managing people who were 10, 20, 30 years older than I was. And it was actually a really, really beautiful experience.

That was, that was very challenging for a lot of people, but I, I actually preferred it because I was like, okay, great. You guys know this. you want to see? What is your feedback? What is your, like, desires for change or growth or expansion? Um, because you understand your role the best and like, how can I learn from you?

And I really tried to translate that into this role as well. And so, you know, with, with sort of like, Empowering everyone in the team. Like this is an open, I'm, my door is always open. And my goal is to make this the best working environment to make sure that we have the best container for the guests that come through.

Um, so it's like, I think there's really some really beautiful things that, um, you know, can be taught in these kind of, you know, standard business structures, but I also think that there's a real opportunity for us to innovate even at the level of the organizational structure, um, in this space to better reflect, um, what we want to achieve with the medicine work that we're doing.

[00:17:15] Pascal: Absolutely. I think there's benefits, uh, to, to that world for sure. I think just You know, the, the direction, the structure, the processes and things can really help make things smooth so that people can have a beautiful experience in the ceremony and beyond. Right. And I'm curious to hear, uh, what you learned from the Shipibo people throughout this whole process, because you came in as a corporate world, Philadelphia, uh, person and, uh, had a, uh, Uh, an awakening a little bit, uh, in Peru, uh, uh, in the Amazon and, uh, started a business there and how was it interfacing with them at first?

And what, what, how has the relationship grown over time? And what have you learned from that?

[00:18:00] Melissa: I mean, it's just completely like shifted. Yeah, sure. There's

[00:18:05] Pascal: a lot, sure. There's a lot. It's a

[00:18:06] Melissa: great question. Okay. So I think that, um, my sort of like the, the golden nugget of my answer is that I have. I went from being raised in like a very Catholic, uh, religion to in my own experience, uh, in college, kind of going atheist and realizing the damage that some of the dogma had done to me as just individually as a person.

And there's many people I know that are really beautifully served by religion and I hold no judgment there, but for me, it was the. It was very hard. Um, and I went through some, some tough times with my own reckoning with what is spirituality. And so I swung the pendulum in the other direction and went atheist.

And I was an engineer and I was very much, you know, in that sort of rational, logical mindset and the skepticism, um, about reality and, uh, sort of this like disconnect from anything beyond the 3d realm for me was very real. And. And that got completely like undermined, broken down by the, the Shapibo cosmology and how that interfaced with my own experiences with the medicine.

And so really I would say like what I've learned from them and what I really appreciate is an animistic approach to, to all of life and really understanding. Um, my own experiential, like relationality to, to life in general. And I didn't, I didn't think that plants had consciousnesses or spirits. And then I met a plant spirit and now I, you know, I do believe that.

So, um, that's the, that's the short answer, but like the cosmology that they, that they, uh, have just so deeply rooted in, With, as it relates to all plants and actually all of life has been profound for me in, in how I relate to life and my own sense of spirituality.

[00:20:06] Pascal: And you welcome mostly Westerners who come into this indigenous environment, but tapping into an experience that transcends all cultures, right?

And then they come back to reality and go back home into a Western frame. How's that been for you to help create a container that can hold that well and helping them go back home in a way that is supportive.

That's a very large travel distance between the, you know, for example, Philly to the Peru jungle to the. grandmother world back home into the Western culture. That's a lot.

[00:20:45] Melissa: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, one benefit for me that my background has provided of like this very kind of rational scientific mind is, um, this appreciation for just the jarring difference between these two paradigms of both healing and, and like reality, right.

And the, the sort of cultural, cultural phenomenon. Um, So really we try and meet people where they are and where they are, of course, is so varied person to person. And so, you know, with our relationship and partnership with you guys, with Nektara and also with the materials that we've developed over the years and the people, um, on our team, it's like, how.

What, what is going to best support someone at different points in their journeys and based on where their nervous system is within, you know, their own process and what background they've come from and what actually supports them, you know, like we can talk in the scientific framework, we can talk in the psychological framework, we can talk in the spiritual framework, right?

So just really trying to provide as many different options and resources for people to kind of find what works for them. Um And for them to then, when they come to the retreat, also have a deeper understanding of the Shipibo cosmology, and that's not to impose another, you know, sort of set of reality structures or dogma onto them, but just to share like, hey, this is, you know, this is the culture that you're stepping into, and this is what, what our maestros believe, and, you know, they speak for themselves in that, and we have, you know, the ability to have consultations with their healers too.

So, you know, they'll share stories and they'll share kind of what's relevant from, um, their medicine experience towards, you know, what the retreat container needs. And so it's really trying to kind of meet people where they are, not necessarily impose any one structure or way of doing things, but just kind of to share, like, this is the tradition and, um, and then balancing that with, Supportive programming that's not contraindicated with the work, um, that also supports people's bodies and minds and spirits.

So that's, you know, yoga, meditation, integration, workshop, sharing circles, um, flower baths with medicinal plants. Um, you know, certain shipibo, uh, like BOMATIVO is a part of it as well. And, uh, and then spaciousness for people to just really Find time for themselves, connect with nature and our beautiful spaces and, um, just process one on one with our facilitators as well.

So having that facilitator aspect be a bit of a bridge as well. Um, our trauma informed facilitators can kind of help to do the emotional mental processing, whereas our healers really focus on the energetic work in ceremony.

[00:23:39] Pascal: Yeah, I'd love to hear more about that, like sort of the perspective of the Shipibo people on the medicine and integration and, and the experience itself, like, what have you learned from them hosting you throughout the years?

[00:23:55] Melissa: So, yeah, I would say, I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, I always hesitate a little bit of like sharing, um, you know, what the Shipibo believe or like kind of generalizing, you know, any sort of cultural information or knowledge, um, because like I think the the kind of beautiful thing is like you can ask any maestro the same question.

Um, each maestro will answer differently and probably the same maestro will give you a different answer on a different day as well. But, um, so, you know, speaking from like, yeah, speaking from like what I've learned from the healers that I've worked with, um, It's that there is like this root cause relationality to healing and that everything is interconnected and that, that this is the basis of, um, a lot of the energetic healing work that's possible within the space because the Western kind of healing approach is very reductionist and very separate.

And for example, your, if you have. Crohn's disease, right? Like your, your gastroenterologist is not going to ask you about your childhood trauma. They're going to really try and treat the symptoms of, of, you know, of the Crohn's disease, but not necessarily make any sort of connection to any mental or emotional content.

Whereas, you know, within this kind of framework, um, perhaps there is actually Like, it makes perfect sense that there would be a connection to, you know, you, something happened to you in your childhood that, you know, broke your relationship with yourself. And as a result of that, your body turned against itself.

And now it's at war with itself. And now you have an autoimmune disease that is a manifesto. station of, you know, this inner, um, emotional turmoil or dissonance or conflict. And so if you heal that emotional root, then it makes perfect sense that the physical body would then, you know, heal itself. And then that would manifest in, in the physical world.

And so for me, that's just fantastic because I'm like, wow, this opens up a whole new like area of. of healing. Like it's really like a different paradigm of healing that I feel like is so needed. And, you know, you know, this as well as I, it's like, there's so many diseases, especially chronic ones, especially autoimmune, um, you know, self against self, right?

Like it's. these like chronic illnesses that Western medicine doesn't have any answers for in this moment. And I, I do see this, I do see these types of illnesses being healed. Um, you know, it's not always, and it's not guaranteed of course, but there is this connection that, um, that I think Western medicine is missing between the mind body spirit complex.

[00:26:45] Pascal: Was there ever a moment in the last years where you were kind of wowed by The results you've seen from sort of this different paradigm of healing.

[00:26:55] Melissa: Yeah. I mean, I've, you know, and there's, it's cool too, because there's also like some scientific like basis for these, uh, you know, these harmines and harmaline compounds that stimulate neurogenesis, um, and neuroplasticity and, you know, really allow you to rewire your brain.

And so the example that, that came up for me was, um, Someone with a traumatic brain injury that was just constantly experiencing severe migraines and vertigo, um, that was just not being served at all by, by the medicine or by Western medicine. And, um, for the 1st time, she said, at the end of her retreat, she could, like, look up at the stars and not feel nauseous.

Um, and, um. There was someone with Lyme's disease that actually I know several people who have healed themselves from Lyme's disease, um, Crohn's disease as well. Diabetes, even like it crazy. Um, and, uh, and, and actually in terms of the Crohn's disease, the person that I'm thinking of, um, it was. It was because of like her relationship with her mother, um, from when she was a kid and like, just witnessing these processes, um, have completely wowed me because it's like, you know, there's no, there's no, there hasn't been any answer for them in Western medicine.

And yet, um, they make these connections in, in the medicine space and, and the results are there, you know.

[00:28:21] Pascal: Yeah, definitely see a future where we're blending those two sides, uh, and integrating them together. I think that's, you know, it takes the benefits from each side and it's not to demonize the Western framework at all.

Like you've said, there's definitely benefits to it. And my friend's life was saved by the Western system and I'm holding his rock right now. Hi David. Um, and, uh, there's benefits to all of that. So how enriching it must have been for you to, to have been experiencing that in the last years to see the quote unquote miracles that have been happening.

Um, and, uh, I mean, the, the maestros you're working with, I'm curious about how they view their work and how they view their, uh, relationship to the plants and, uh, were they born into it very young and they started training when they were kids?

[00:29:11] Melissa: Yeah, for sure.

And, um, and yeah, just to say also, I love what you said about, you know, it's not about demonizing Western medicine. I think we can really integrate these healing paradigms and that, that kind of feels like my mission a little bit in this work or, you know, because I, I do feel like that. Why are they enemies?

Like they just, they're in different lanes and they can serve people, you know, in different ways. And like, that's beautiful. That's what we need. It's kind of an all hands on deck situation in the world at this moment. Um, And yeah, so, uh, yeah, so actually the majority of our healers, um, I would say I can't, I think almost all of them except ones.

We have four teams of two healers each and, um, three of them are, uh, husband and wife and then one is, um, is two cousins. And so, um, Yeah, I think actually all of them have been working with this medicine since the time they were like early teenager kind of years. So it's been it's been quite a number of years and it is in general overall, like a very lineage based tradition.

So, um, you know, we have my show have a year who learned from his grandfather. Um, we have Maestra Sylvia who learned from her aunt, I believe, um, and just like really starting this path from a very young age, because it is so integrated into their culture and way of life. Um, and that being said, there's actually quite a bit of, um, there's quite a bit of like younger Shipibo people who are starting to want to go out into the Western world and leave the jungle and not actually learn the tradition and, uh, And so there's some initiatives from different healers that we're working with that, um, are trying to set up Shopeebo schools for Shopeebo children, um, or, um, really cultural immersion, like opportunities and support bringing this culture back, uh, into, into the mainstream narrative.

And, and I think that it's been really beautiful to be able to support that through this work. Um, yeah, I would say most. Most, if not all of them have been working with, with plants, um, since 13 years or even younger. Actually, I think Javier started when he was like eight or something.

[00:31:27] Pascal: Yeah. Apprenticeship, right?

Like the, the, the value of time and depth, right. And uh, I think that's another difference between the sort of the Western approach to facilitation is that, you know, there's a sort of a chase for, you know, the two or three year program or even the two week program or even the weekend program to start doing facilitation, but really it's a year long dedication.

Um, and I think it just plays into the whole contrast. Between the worlds, right? Like the capitalistic sort of system and the one in the jungle and this, this sort of idea of what, what is real wealth and what is real value and what is real relationship and what is real reciprocity and those type of things are, uh, very enriching to explore.

And I'd like to scale back a little bit back to the business, because I'm also very interested in that side of things, which is the retreat space. Um, I'm curious because me and Elaine actually looked at opening a retreat at some point we were one of these people that had many experiences and like, oh, we should open a retreat.

And yet, like, when we looked into it, like the budget and the planning and everything, it's such a big undertaking. And I think a lot of people maybe don't appreciate how much work it is to run a retreat. And how many different elements to a retreat there are, you know, from the founding to the funding, to the team, to the location, to the community, to the support system, to the programs themselves, to the operations, the intake, etc.

Um, you know that better than anyone in the world, maybe. Um, It's a lot of work and it's really, really, really hard to do it and also really, really hard to do it well. So, I'm curious for people who have never run a retreat, which is probably most people listening right now, what are some of the challenges or things that you've faced or you face on a daily basis around running a retreat?

[00:33:19] Melissa: Yeah, it's a great, great question. And I think, um, it's definitely been like the most rewarding and the most challenging work that I've ever done in my life. Um, you know, it's, it's so beautiful to see, like, literally people's lives changing every single week. And like, for all of the challenges, like, that is, you know, Just that's like, wow, I can't imagine doing anything else right now with, with my life.

Um, and it feels really fulfilling because there's so much pain and suffering and trauma in the world right now. And to be like a little bit, a part of the solution in that feels, feels really good. Um, that being said, you know, there is, especially when it's, One of the most powerful psychedelic medicines, like in the world that is also deeply tied to an indigenous culture, you know, us being like half of the team being Westerners, including the owners and, you know, really wanting to balance, you know, The support for the guests who do come from most of the time, you know, Western cultures, while also really honoring the traditions and the roots and allowing the space for, you know, them to just do the best work that they can.

And, you know, um, while at the same time being like mindful and trauma informed and what kind of training and, you know, the hiring process and building these sort of relationships with not just the healers, but also their families. And just being. You know, inside the retreat container, like these are people's.

Lives. These are people's psyches. These are people's spirits like this at the, the, the gravity and the stakes are not low in this work in particular. And so there's a whole other layer of, you know, really wanting to make sure that we are consulting with the right people and, you know, having a database of medical contraindications and navigating, you know, the stigma and the cultural, um.

Narratives that are, you know, part of this continuation of the drug, the war on drugs and, um, you know, different like systems of legal, you know, operating in Latin America and doing business here and, um, making sure that, you know, the full like support system is there. And then, of course, 24 7, really, when there's retreats running, but if there's not retreats running, then there's.

Like the team is still there and there's people coming or traveling to, or leaving from, or needing support with. And, um, just even like the infrastructure and maintaining the ground, like it just, it could, I could go on and on, right. Like there's so many, and I think anyone who owns a business or operates a business, it's like, wow, you really don't know what goes into it until you start doing it, like, and then that's not even like the online stuff, right.

And ensuring that we're like meeting people where they are in the education and on our social media and, you know, so. Yeah, there's, there's quite a lot. And I think, but I think for me, the challenge that I, I kind of like that is alive for me constantly, cause there is like the operational challenges, but, um, is really like, how, how are we integrating healing paradigms?

Um, and, and, and not just healing, but also cultural paradigms, um, and how to do this in a way that is, that has a strong foot. Like if we're bridging cultures, like how do we have a strong foot in both worlds, um, and do that with integrity and like, what does integrity like mean? Like how does that manifest in this space?

There's so many different considerations and, you know, aspects of like the movement and colonization and oppression and, you know, systems that have, um, really hurt, you know, people before. And so just like how to continue to talk, share and execute and do this in a good way. Um, when. When you're sort of walking this intercultural line.

[00:37:22] Pascal: Yeah, that's, that's beautiful that you approach it that way. Because I think once you recognize the sacredness of the actual experience, then you can start to see that every single detail around that experience actually matters. For safety, for transformation, for care, really, and once you have that curiosity, I like that you're asking questions because no one really knows the answer to this.

It's an evolving thing, and I'm sure things have changed since 2014 in the way, you know, you and Dan are holding this spaceship, um, Because it really is a bit of a spaceship, uh, and I'm curious to hear what, what are things that you've learned along the way around doing this?

Because your vision of this is always evolving. Um, The attention to detail that you do hold and the intention you have probably brings up new things that you're learning all the time or things that you're noticing could be better. And I mean, for me, like a well run retreat is just an involving, it's a medicine for the owners and everyone involved because you keep, if you keep reflecting and get curious about it, you can get pretty deep into the details of that.

And what a beautiful journey that must have been for you over the years.

[00:38:39] Melissa: Yeah, thank you. It's, it's, it does feel like, um, this, this work is my healing. And then the integration of my healing is my work. Like it does. It's absolutely this, this feedback loop. And that's, I think the case for anyone in this path of service and definitely within Sultara.

Like it's, uh, you know, this entire work is also medicine for us and we're not, We're not gurus. We don't already have it all figured out. Like we're here, you know, we have our own processes. We're humaning just as best as we can along with everyone else. And, um, and so, yeah, it has been this like continuous evolution of, um, how, how can we contribute?

Best to the ecosystems that we are a part of and create the container that best serves the guests that come through, um, and continue to, like, build this community and this relationship. And so how that's kind of evolved for me over the years is, I would say, like, the, the things that. I choose to participate in and, um, pursue as collaborations, let's say, or projects, or like, of course, an example is working with you guys in Actara.

It's like, wow, we've, you know, we've really tried to like, build the, the, rebuild the wheel or whatever the expression is of, you know, to, To create like a holistic integration program. And it's like, Oh, actually, there's people out there who are already doing this. Like, why don't we, um, I think you use the words like breakout of our respective silos, right?

Realize we don't have to to carry this alone. Um, even within Costa Rica, like how that. is we are working on crea of medicine centers to su resource sharing, um, edu research, policy, advocacy Contribution to sort of the global, uh, understanding and knowledge system of like of this work. And that's been really beautiful because it's like, wow, you know, we don't have like meeting the people that are a part of this type of heart service work has been so beautiful to really undo the sort of capitalistic like competition mindset and really build community in a different way.

And, you know, help to. Help to build like collaborative approaches and like, Hey, you know, I'm having a tough time, but maybe somebody else in the space, like, has a solution for this or has dealt with this before can just hold space or like, I can, you know, support people who have, you know, situations come up that I've already been through.

So, like. Really? How can we kind of start to, to have this like collaboration over competition? And, um, and that's been like really, really beautiful because for me, that feels exactly like way more in integrity with the work that we're doing. And, uh, and then how can we like contribute back to, to the movement?

So, you know, that, that looks like. You know, sponsoring conferences or, you know, supporting our team in professional development or going to certain conferences that really highlight indigenous voices or, um, you know, voices from the global South, things like that. So, you know, just the, the things that we as Sultana choose to participate in, and then also pursue and give our time to outside of, um, you know, beyond also, like, continuing to optimize and support the retreat container for the guests that come through on site.

[00:42:17] Pascal: Yeah, what a relief to know that we don't have to do everything on our own. It's like, Oh, wow, that's great. It feels great for my nervous system to know that. I really thought

[00:42:24] Melissa: for a second and then, you know, the medicine was like, why?

[00:42:30] Pascal: Well, it's kind of like a paper tiger, right? It's like you kind of grew up in this competitive world and I grew up in the eighties, so, you know, the eighties movie were all about the guy who got the suit and the girl and, you know, went to the top of the tower and, uh, had a big job in a big office, right?

It was that sort of mindset. I kind of like. watching 80s movies now because you can reflect back on the paradigm from those times. Like that was so silly. That was, you got it wrong. You have to go through that period. And we're still going through it, all of us, but, uh, what a relief to know that we can collaborate and, and, uh, share and not have to hold everything on our own because ultimately what we're up to is not.

You know, being quote unquote successful. It's about the global mental health crisis and the global ecological crisis. Like we're, that's a big one to take on. Right. And we all have to do our own part in that. And it's all little bits here and there, like little one degree shifts, but when we do it together, it becomes a two degree shift and that's amazing, you know, and.

I think that's the future of the space. And I, I see a lot of untangling of the old paradigm in the space, like in terms of organizations and businesses. But I see a lot of people like Salterra, for example, really opening up to silos and really, truly collaborating and partnering and elevating the space with them, and I think that's the way to go.

[00:43:47] Melissa: Oh my gosh. That's been like the most life giving thing for me. Like I, I didn't realize. You know, there's like the day to day operations and like, that's fine. I can do that. But like, what's really fulfilling for me is like going out and like finding, like building the mycelial network of, of humans and plant allies, right.

That are just like in support of, like, we're all on mission together. And so. Like, that's so exciting for me to like, find other people and organizations that are, you know, synergistic or collaborative or towards the same mission. And like, for me, that's life giving and like, so much of this work is about community, right?

And I think really integrating that has been this journey of like, how can we, because also people in our community, like, it's not just about connecting them. With Sultara, it's actually about connecting them with each other. And so many people have so many like different, beautiful skill sets, wisdom, medicine to offer the world.

And like, how do we really support that? Cause you're right. It's like, we're in this time of such an inflection point and so, so much like all hands on deck is what I'm feeling.

[00:44:59] Pascal: Yeah, it is all hands on deck. And I think this, the, you know, the, the connections you're making or have ripples across the world that we can't ever measure or even quantify in any way.

So I also find that a very exciting for me as someone who was, you know, cooperating a business in the space. To me, it's about the humans that are part of the space and, you know, how we get on meetings and help each other and, and push in the same direction and in a way that's, uh, all about service. And that to me has been very healing for me is to find other people like that.

Um, Like, Oh, I'm not alone in caring like this. And, uh, you know, we can do something together that, uh, you know, I always say like, if, if I, if we can touch one person in our work during the whole year, it's actually worth all of it

can be life transforming because I've felt it, you've felt it before that sort of shift where it's like something happened was like, oh, my trajectory changed from that day. And for me, it was after my first ceremony, like in the morning, I had a beautiful kind of first ceremony. I was, um, Shown a lot of beautiful things, but it's in the morning when I woke up and I looked in someone's eye and for the first time felt like genuine human connection in a way that was not guarded, but it was more like a light seeing another light that transformed me because then I started believing the human potential again and believing in myself and others and that opened me up to so much because, um, I felt that spark for the first time.

I was like, wow, what a beautiful, um, yeah. Existence that I can have and I can participate in it. And I think that's something that really beautifully shared is around, um, the connection piece that happens between people, um, and what happens when they get connected to the medicine to the community and they bring that back home and how much that transforms their whole ecosystem if they have the right integration support, of course, but it does.

Blossom over time. Um,

[00:46:51] Melissa: Oh, I love that. I, I've always thought that it would be like such a beautiful experiment to like, think about like the ripples of every single brave soul that comes to this work and you know, really shows up for it. And like what actual ripples in our world does that actually have?

And then, you know, it just, it's exponential. It really is. And, and I love that. I love that. Like really connecting to that spark, like really. Witnessing what's possible when someone who maybe has, you know, has been broken into a million pieces, like figures out a way to weave back into a whole and alchemize that wisdom and then like really make that human connection and like reignite that spark within them.

And I just, that's, that's what I've really appreciated about you, Pascal, and working with your team at Nektar is that you're, you're so about the long term relationships and like the humans. Behind it and like, what is actually, what are we doing here? If not building community, right? And you've always kept that so front and center.

And I, I just, I feel like we're just very, very aligned in that. And it's something that, you know, I think it's the ripples that can come from anyone who kind of steps into this space and receives just that, that spark, um, is. Would be a really cool thought experiment.

[00:48:14] Pascal: Yeah, And likewise for you, it's been a real pleasure.

And, uh, it reminds me of my friend, another David, a different David who was touched by the medicine. And he, he was working in a very rural area of Canada in a timber mill, you know, the most manly sort of old, you know, sort of, uh, area you can think of, you know, like big dudes drinking beer and like working the machines and everything.

And, and David was touched by the medicine and over the, uh, over the year that he was working there, he became the guy that the other guys would come and talk to and get healing from just like talking to him because his perspective had been shifted by so much that they were really curious about it. And he had a huge effect on that timber mill, you know, just from being who he is.

And, uh, it's those types of little stories that I've seen so many times that just, uh, really inspires me to keep going. To, to keep, uh, you know, my dedication to the space. And, um, I'm, I'm curious to hear. You know, we've talked about the retreats and so this idea of like next generation retreats about collaboration and partnerships and things like that, like what do you see in the space of retreats specifically, um, these days and where do you see it going?

[00:49:27] Melissa: Yeah, gosh, sometimes it still feels like I'm just so at the beginning of my journey. And, um, there's definitely, you know, I, I still can, I consider us kind of like teenagers in the space.

Like we've been, I mean, I think, you know, with the experience we had in, in Peru and then just seeing the way that the, the, the movement has grown over the years where, you know, there's been a lot of effort and I think there's still a lot to be done related to, um, reducing stigma, also harm reduction, also preparation and integration support.

I mean, luckily that has really improved and, you know, you actually supporting retreat centers, I think is a huge testament to, you know, how, how the evolution is like so necessary and how, you know, the catalyst that's needed for that, um, because it is, you know, it is really a whole other. Challenge and opportunity for not, it's one thing to have like the retreat container really strong, right.

But it's another thing to have to not just like cut off contact with people or just like stop, you know, supporting people before and after, or just like sending them a packet of info and then that's it, um, to really like create these spaces for continued healing and growth and community. Um, so it's hard to say, but I do.

I do see like some movement within the mainstream culture that this work is, that these cultures and these plant medicines and psychedelics are getting to a place of like more acceptance, perhaps just Out of need of, from the suffering that's happening and just people, you know, maybe not being served by current systems.

Um, and so, yeah, I see a branching out of like, more education. Um, I definitely see more alliances, you know, there's psychedelic societies popping up all over the world. Um, you know, there's more scientific studies coming out. There's more retreats, I think, than ever before, really. And so, um, you know. I think it'll be interesting to see kind of how the retreat space develops.

Um, there's many right ways, of course, to do this work, many traditions, um, many sort of neo shamanic approaches. And so, you know, what I would love to see is like, and I actually have seen some potential projects in this space. Like there's somebody that I know through the national alliance here, that's working on a platform that would allow for, um, medical database, uh, access for anyone to check contraindications and diagnoses and medications for certain psychedelics.

Um, and so I see kind of these like systems that are, you know, more trainings. We'll, we'll see what happens with the FDA and, you know, MDMA. I know that that just got denied, but you know, I think the, the fight is still on, um, to expand access. You know, you see certain States. Um, trying different models of access.

And I think that that is going to be very, very interesting to see over the next five years. Like what is the medicalization approach? What is the decriminalization approach? What is the legalization, perhaps, you know, religious approach? How are we going to, um, how are we actually going to like bridge this work in reciprocity as well with the cultures that these plants came from?

You know, I think that Some of these issues are, are there's so many complex factors to take into account, but I think that these conversations are starting to happen. And I hold a lot of optimism that, like, the people that are, you know, stepping into these conversations are doing it with good intentions and they're, they're complex solutions.

But I think that there are, there are solutions. And so, um, Yeah, again, just more collaboration, more, more education, more harm reduction.

[00:53:32] Pascal: Yeah, yeah. And more infrastructure to the scale, right? I think when I heard about the FDA decision, I was disappointed, of course, for access, but I also thought, you know, I don't know if this space is quite ready to scale to that level yet, in terms of ethics and safety and.

integration support. Um, I think there's a lot of work to be done there. And it's, it's, it's a part of the ongoing process. It's like Geronimo from ICER said, he said, you know, look at skateboarders in 1950s and look at them now and how they've evolved. You know, when they were starting out, they were just kind of trying stuff or people who gave x rays to babies all the time.

Like when things start to unfold and be created. People make mistakes and they grow from it and they, you know, things become better over time. So we're still in the early stage, despite what a lot of people thought three years ago, when they were like, Oh, the site, the space is going to boom real soon.

They're going to make tons of money and everything's going to be decriminalized everywhere. And, uh, things are just slower. And I think it's a good invitation to be slow, actually, and not grow too fast, too much. Um, at the same time, there is a crisis that, uh, you know, I, I feel like the underground is doing such a courageous and really heroic job of, of serving, um, you know, so, you know, people in Canada, for example, working as facilitators or people lugging their ceremony gear in their Jeep for like, You know, 10 hours in their car to do a ceremony somewhere, um, you know, I have tons and tons of respect for them because they're really at the front lines of, of growing the space in a way that, uh, isn't seen by the legal system and you know what?

It's changing lives. So, um, I have a lot of hope in the future for, for the space.

[00:55:09] Melissa: Oh, that's beautiful. And I, I really can appreciate that perspective. And I, I have seen, you know, it's like, we all, I love Geronimo, by the way, he's like one of my favorite people. Um, I feel like he's, I feel like we're in, we were in this space, like you mentioned of like quick expansion and everybody sort of being like, Oh, FDA is going to approve it.

Like, let's capitalize. Let's, and actually perhaps that brought in, you know, Misaligned intentions, perhaps like really maybe more profit driven than service driven. And, you know, like, we saw this kind of happen with the cannabis industry, right? It was like, actually, the, the home growers and the mom and pop shops, like, actually got completely bought out by all these venture capitalists just seeing dollar signs.

And that kind of started to happen, actually, with the psychedelic movement. And yeah, pending FDA approval. So now that there is a delay, of course, it's heartbreaking because we want to get access to as many people who need it as possible. And I really appreciate what you're saying that actually, maybe we need to slow down and make sure we're doing it right.

And Um, you know, it's, it's been a little bit hard times and in the, in the psychedelic space lately, but, um, I also think that, yeah, it's just for the people that are in it for the long haul, it's, it's really helping to force us to slow down and fortify and like, you know, take one step at a time. And, um, and then for those who are looking to make a quick buck and maybe realizing that's not happening anymore, then that's maybe for the best.

[00:56:42] Pascal: Yeah, and to clarify, I, you know, I was hoping it would get approved. I think, you know, for me, access is a human right, um, and I truly believe in that. Um, and yet I think that the slowness, the invitation to slowness is a bit of a silver lining in that. And I hope that, and I see people creating things now that are going to help fortify the space over the years.

So, uh, I think people are seeing the gaps and they're feeling it. Uh, there's so many beautiful people working on beautiful things. So, uh, I, I do see things evolving really nicely over the next years. So I have a last question for you, which is, um, what's happening at Siltara these days. And you have a new location opening up soon, which I've seen pictures and I was like, I want to go there.

So we are traveling there next year, uh, to visit you in Costa Rica. And the place looks amazing. Like, how was the process? I'm actually curious.

[00:57:29] Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I can't wait for you guys to come next year. Uh, side note. Um, so, you know, we started in our Playa Blanca location, which is, um, on the Nicoya Peninsula. And so that space we've had since, since 2018. Um, and then over the years, we've, uh, again, like worked in collaboration with other retreat venues and centers and spaces.

So that's been, really beautiful in like kind of this, this way where it's like each. Center or each venue has, you know, its own specific uniqueness and beauty and way of doing things. Um, and, and then our medicine team is like, so pro right now of just like, all right, like, where are we going? Okay. We've got, we've got the program on lock.

You know, we know what we need. We have. Like all of the operational logistics, you know, we know what, what we need to handle and figure out. And so it's been really cool to kind of offer different opportunities for people to connect with the medicine in different locations. So for a bit of time, we had our Amazon location, um, and then we moved into sacred valley and we just started.

Yeah, concluded a beautiful stint with them. And, you know, maybe in the future we'll do like some smaller mini series retreats there. Um, but really it's been, it's been really like, it's been extremely synchronistic, actually the center that we found here in Montezuma. Very small, intimate container, 12 to 14 people, absolutely like just so heart driven staff like that was actually that and the center of the land itself, which is like a 40 acre nature reserve with a waterfall and a private river and very like jungly kind of huge canopy trees and tropical gardens and outdoor showers.

So, like, the land itself, but then also the people running it, we're like, so excited to have medicine and to hold space and they actually just came for a retreat here at Sultara. So they kind of got the full experience there. Um, and we're opening that location in, uh, October 28th will be our first retreat there.

And, um, yeah, I think it's, it's an opportunity for people who have maybe experienced Playa Blanca too, which is a very like beach mountain, kind of tropical, um, forest area. Setting more kind of up on the Hill, like looking out at the ocean, which is beautiful. And then this is like more of an immersive, it feels like if Peru came to Costa Rica, actually, which is like where I was like, okay, this, this really fits.

It feels, it feels right. Um, so yeah, so we're opening that space in, in November. And like I said, like our team is just so experienced with, you know, wherever, wherever we need to go, we, we, uh, we'll take it. So.

[01:00:13] Pascal: Yeah, beautiful. And I, we've had the privilege of have, of having, uh, visibility of how you do things operationally and with support.

And I, you know, I wholeheartedly recommend Zoterra to people because they really do things really, really, really well and, um, Yeah, kudos to you and the team for holding such a beautiful container for people, um, and doing things right in all the little ways. And I think that's part of being a Next Generation Retreat, is like really paying attention to those things and really truly caring about people.

I think that's the core of it, right? So you've done a great job with all of it. So thank you so much for your service, um, and for everything you're doing. And, um, yeah, just thank you. Thank you so much.

[01:00:55] Melissa: Thank you, Pascal. And thank you. I mean, truly, we were like, Like, how, how are we going to continue improving our integration program with, like, the limited capacity that we have?

And it's just been, like, amazing to see, like, same with you guys, you know, I feel like I've learned so much from you and, and yeah, it's like, you know, it's where our, like, I don't know, for me personally, like my type a personality or like my engineering background of like, just like all of the little details for me, that's what makes me feel safe.

And so like, that's been like really cool to kind of put into like, Oh, that's actually welcomed in this, in this space of just ensuring that, yeah, it's like, that's, that's that care. Right. Cause that I know how it makes me feel safe when I just, I can sense that everything has already been thought of and I just need to show up and surrender to the process.

So.

[01:01:43] Pascal: Yeah, some years ago you came up with the name Salterra and we came up with the name Nekara. So there's something there in some, you know, cosmic way that joined us together. So, yeah, thank you so much. And the same back at you as well.

[01:01:59] Melissa: Love the Godwink.

[01:02:03] Pascal: All right. Thank you so much for being here. And, uh, yeah, check out Salterra.

Salterra. co. Thank you everyone.

[01:02:08] Melissa: Thanks Pascal.

‍